There is one thing I love about America and hate about France. Yes, I really said that.
If I am trying to get something done that isn’t exactly on the menu, in America the answer I get is 9 times out of 10 gonna be something along the lines of “Sure, we can do that for you” or “Let’s see if we can figure out a way for you to do that.”
Can do. That’s what I love about America.
In France, the equivalent is “pas possible.” No way. Forget it. Ain’t happenin’.
I got the pas possible when I tried to return the boots I hadn’t worn. When I tried to return the pillowcases, unopened, with the receipt, after the 30-day limit. Two different times when I wanted to buy something fragile and have it shipped to the States because I was afraid it wouldn’t survive in my luggage… “Pas possible ! That would mean I’d have to go to the post office.” One of them really said that.
I got the pas possible when I tried to exchange a defective book. I’d peeled off the sticker and thrown away the receipt. How could I have known at the time I bought it that it was missing 100 pages after page 163? But, with Vincent’ s help, I was able to badger and cajole the guy into making an exception. Badgering sometimes works. Then the person dealing out the pas possible gets to feel like he’s really bent over backwards for you.
When you are not asking for anything out of the ordinary, you generally don’t get the pas possible. You’re more likely to get a frown, or a shrug, or some such signal of hesitation or reluctance. It does seem like whenever people have something, or can do something you want here, they like to make absolutely sure that you appreciate that they are in a position of power and they’re doing you a favor. So even if there is no reason why they shouldn’t grant your wish, even if they have every intention of doing so from the start, they like to make you squirm a little before finally, grudgingly, giving in.
It’s getting easier to deal with now that I’ve been here a while. I’ve lowered my expectations to nil, so any time something is relatively easy, I’m pleasantly surprised.
I’m a very can-do American. Most of us are that way, I think. We get an idea and decide we’re going to make it happen. We figure we’ll worry about the details when we get there and that, somehow, we’ll overcome any obstacles. (If I weren’t like that, I might never have ended up here in Paris…) This cultural characteristic probably explains why there are so many entrepreneurs in the US and so few in France. On numerous occasions, I’ve said to Vincent “It must be done, therefore it can be done.” That’s how I operate.
Of course, that classic American “we’ll worry about the details later” approach is what got the US into such a mess in Iraq, as Vincent likes to point out.
I would really like to understand the origins of what I can only interpret, through my cultural lens, as the French national power trip. It seems like the difference is that we Americans get our sense of power from making things happen, while the French get their sense of power from preventing things from happening. By the same token, what makes us feel good about ourselves is being helpful and efficient and making things easier for others, while what seems to make the French feel good about themselves is that feeling of magnanimity they get after they’ve surmounted, on your behalf, the obstacle they created artificially in the first place. Your thoughts?
Nicolas Sarkozy, who’s been president of France for 10 months now, ran with the campaign slogan “Together, everything becomes possible.”
No wonder they call him “Sarko the American.” He’s a can-do guy, no question. I was depressed when he was elected, but I was secretly hoping his election was a sign that the French might be moving away from the pas possible mindset.
But no. These days, Sarko can’t do anything right. Everything he does causes outrage and indignation. (For that the French say “C’est pas possible,” which is not at all the same as plain ol’ “pas possible.”)
I agree with them when it comes to Sarko’s shenanigans, don’t get me wrong. So far, he’s doing much more harm than good. And despite his slogan, I doubt he’ll end up having much of an effect on the pas possible phenomenon.
For now, I can still only dream of the day when I might hear a French person say, right off the bat, no begging or badgering required, no fraught body language, “Aucun problème.”
“No problem.”
You knew I’d comment, didn’t you?
2 things:
- Americans always say sure, no problem, but in my experience, they are almost always totally incompetent and utterly incapable of delivering on that promise.
- As I’ve pointed out to you many times (you’re being coy), people in France who earn minimum wage doing a shitty job aren’t going to act like they are insanely happy to help you. They’ll do just what it takes not to get fired.
If you pay attention, you’ll notice in fact that a person’s willingness to help is proportional to his wages and/or how rewarding his job is.
So it’s not a power trip as you define it. It’s more like “you get what you pay for”. In other words, it’s a political/social issue. Our modern-day exploited workforce are not as helpful as our modern-day exploiters…
And this, to a Frenchman, is perfectly normal and justified.
You dare to make sweeping generalizations about Americans being losers on MY blog!? ;-)
Yes, we’ve talked about it. But I’m obviously not completely satisfied. One thing I want to examine is why our minimum-wage sales clerks are perky and helpful and yours are sullen and resentful.
This phenomenon is not limited to low-paying jobs, though, although the point you made OFF-BLOG (cheater) about owners of businesses being very accommodating can be true in both countries.
It’s not always true here though. Owners in the US are going to be helpful because they want your business. I still get the impression that owners here couldn’t care less about getting your business. I cite the example of the owners of the tabac on St Germain (The Twickenham, also a café, don’t ever go there, dear readers, the rudest proprietors I have ever encountered in my life). Those owners act like they’re doing you a favor by virtue of their mere existence.
You have said yourself that capitalism, being a great evil in the French mind, and thus business being an unsavory activity, makes French people approach business in a totally different way. Here, there’s something dirty about being driven to succeed in business. It’s not cool to try hard to make your commercial activity work. You are looked down upon if you’re overtly capitalistic. And, if you do succeed, you end up being the big evil boss, which in itself is an undesirable end result.
You have also pointed out, in conversations that took place before I wrote this, that your socialist/workers’ rights history contributes to the phenomenon. I can see how that could be true. If you are operating from the assumption that any worker is an exploited worker, any worker doing work for anyone is harboring the suspicion that he’s being exploited.
You’re all just damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
And don’t tell me it’s not a power trip. If somebody believes his entire life that he’s being oppressed, he’s gonna do what he has to do to get in his little digs. It’s human nature.
Besides, I have to understand all these things because I’m starting a business in this country. I’m going to have to hire sullen frogs and buying them donuts on Friday mornings won’t work here, I have a feeling.
It’s a question of empathy.
When you see a sales clerk, you see, and I quote your comment, “a loser” who’s too dumb or lazy to create Microsoft, and who should be happy to have a job and to help you.
I see someone doing a job that I would hate to do. I see someone who’s job would be outsourced to India or replaced by a machine if it was feasible. I see someone who might be a poor slob, but who might also have a PhD in theoretical physics or Greek philosophy, and who’s doing what he/she can to survive. That’s why I am courteous and polite with them, and don’t take it badly if they’re in a lousy mood (again, empathy: I would be too in their place). And, so out of respect, I wouldn’t ask them how my butt looks in the jeans I’m trying on.
As for why your minimum wage workers are perky, well, here’s a thought: they’ve probably never heard of:
alienation (āl’yə-nā’shən, ā’lē-ə-)
(Marx) : the process whereby the worker is made to feel foreign to the products of his/her own labor. The creation of commodities need not lead to alienation and can, indeed, be highly satisfying: one pours one’s subjectivity into an object and one can even gain enjoyment from the fact that another in turn gains enjoyment from our craft. In capitalism, the worker is exploited insofar as he does not work to create a product that he then sells to a real person; instead, the proletariat works in order to live, in order to obtain the very means of life, which he can only achieve by selling his labor to a capitalist for a wage (as if his labor were itself a property that can be bought and sold). The worker is alienated from his/her product precisely because s/he no longer owns that product, which now belongs to the capitalist who has purchased the proletariat’s labor-power in exchange for exclusive ownership over the proletariat’s products and all profit accrued by the sale of those products.
“And don’t tell me it’s not a power trip. If somebody believes his entire life that he’s being oppressed, he’s gonna do what he has to do to get in his little digs. It’s human nature.”
The power trip is between the employer and the employee, not between the employee and the customer.
We have labor laws that aim to protect the week from the strong. In fact, it’s the only reason to even have laws! To protect the meek and the weak.
Employers hate those laws and try to erode them. Employees try to preserve the rights that these laws allow them to have. That’s the struggle that goes on around here. You’d be in a lousy mood too if you weren’t allowed to pee when you needed to…
First of all, my “losers” comment was in reference to your “in my experience, they are almost always totally incompetent and utterly incapable of delivering on that promise.”
When I look at a sales clerk, a waitress, etc. I’m also respectful and friendly. What I see is a person who’s doing a job that doesn’t get much respect. But since I HAVE been in their shoes, I DO, in fact, respect what they’re doing. I don’t think there are many Americans who haven’t started off in jobs like those.
The Marxist definition of alienation is a fascinating twist that definitely merits further consideration. I think in capitalistic America, companies use brand loyalty to make employees feel like they are, in fact, contributing more than just their labor. It’s the same effect marketing has on the consumer. The employee is sold on the coolness of the brand, so for example, they can get behind whatever lifestyle it represents and, in the end, believe there’s something inherently cool about selling GAP shit.
Very interesting…
Well, Marx was a pretty smart and influent dude, and he wrote his shit over a century ago, and a lot of smart people have given his work “further consideration”…
Brat. I meant in the context of this discussion and you know it.
In addition to the brand loyalty created among employees, there are also those other practices that are intended to make employees feel as if they are essential to and participating in the company’s success. All the teamwork posters, company retreats and picnics, happy hours… All the kinds of things you guys don’t do here.
Maybe I’ll make my froggy staff have picnics and eat donuts. Heh heh heh…
I can’t wait to see you try the “employee of the month” and karaoke contest shit with them. Heh, heh, heh…
I’ll have logo baseball hats made.
Joking aside, employees can definitely be enthusiastic about their companies and products and services here, especially in startups, but the prerequisite is that they must feel they are respected as human beings, which starts with receiving decent wages and benefits.
And even if they like and respect their employer, they never loose sight of the fact that their relationship is first and foremost a contractual one, and a lopsided one at that, which means that they’ll always maintain a healthy emotional distance, despite the baseball hats.
I hate to break in on all the fun here, but IMO, it is because people here have so little control over anything that they grasp at what little control they do have. So when someone comes along and needs something, they lord it over them, just so they can feel like they too are in a position of power. Take this example – I once worked in a place where we often had tourists coming in and ask to use the bathroom. One day, a mother came in with a little boy doing the pipi dance. She asked if she could just please use the bathroom, it was an emergency, and my co-worker looked at her and said “No, sorry, no outsiders allowed”. I couldn’t believe it, especially as it’s up to our discretion whether we let people in or not. I said to her “You’re a mother, you have a child, you know what it’s like to be in that situation. For pete’s sake, why didn’t you let her through??” And she didn’t have an answer. I’m sure it probably had happened to her before though and since she wasn’t allowed to take her child to the toilet, she wasn’t going to let that lady either. Kind of like “pay it forward” but in the negative sense. So I strongly believe it’s not just a problem between the employer & the employee.
As for why the cashiers are sullen….I don’t think it has anything to do with pay (I think French cashiers are actually paid more than their American counterpart). I think it more comes down to this – our cashiers are mostly high school and college students who are doing it for pocket money and who know they will go on to bigger and better things. French cashiers will most likely stay in that job until they retire. And wouldn’t you be sullen to if you had to work a job like that for the rest of your life and you knew there was no room for advancement whatsoever?
Hi Samantha.
That story about the lady and the bathroom is horrible! I have to believe it was an isolated incident. I’ve never encountered anybody who was mean here, and that sounds like a case of meanness to me.
I do think the general phenomenon is a question of control and paying it forward, especially if there’s anything to my theory about workers feeling oppressed and wanting to oppress others in turn.
Of course, there are plenty of sullen clerks in the US (more than there were 20 years ago–a new generation of spoiled American brats with a sense of entitlement–but that’s another topic) and plenty of sweet ones here.
I’m pretty sure major grocery store cashiers in the US are unionized, so they should be alright. Not like that poor lady Ségo brought up repeatedly during her campaign; the one who’d worked as a cashier in a grocery store for 40 years and was still making minimum wage when she retired. If that’s what’s going on here, I don’t blame the workers. I still can’t wrap my head around how that could happen with all the attention paid to workers’ rights here.
From what I understand, there is a major difference in the way Americans and French have traditionally looked at the actual jobs they do. Take waiters, for example. In France, that has traditionally been a respectable career; it’s a métier, and people have taken pride in it. I don’t think Americans, either those who are waiting tables or those who are being served, have ever considered waitering/waitressing to be a “career.” If it turns out to be a career, it’s probably not intentional in the US. It’s so complicated to try to compare the differences in how we view work, perform work, what our expectations are in the two cultures because it is all so different!
For example, I think American kids are all raised to think they can create the next Microsoft or walk on Mars or be president. I think the US educational system gives kids unrealistic expectations. I don’t think French kids are raised that way. So an American who ends up a career waiter might feel differently than a French person.
(Also an entirely different topic: Then, of course, there is always the giant marketing machine in America that brainwashes all children into believing they need FANCY STUFF and lots of it, so when they grow up and can’t afford the lifestyle marketed so aggressively to them all their lives, they are doomed to feel inadequate and unsatisfied if they end up with a career in a low-paying field.)
I think a comparison of French and American cultural attitudes towards work would be a fascinating topic for an article.
Thanks for your comment and nice to meet you!
Ah Pam, but if only Bush had shrugged his shoulders, or done a little dance, when Cheney said let’s invade Iraq, and said “pas possible, Richard”.
Interestingly (I guess), in Australia the situation is somewhere between the American and French model (he says, simplifying to the point of lunacy). Australian employees will generally try to help, but somewhat grudgingly. The explanation? Not sure – something to do with a refusal to admit that someone else is superior to you ‘Jack’s as good as his master”. You are in a job where you are meant to provide service, but you are no one’s servant. That I am sure is part of the French explanation too, but what I suppose is surprising is that it is not an American characteristic too in a land that prides itself on equality (but not on fraternity so much, and liberty? That was so pre-Bush.)
Hi David. Yes, there are definitely times when being bold and rash is not at all desirable…
As for simplifying to the point of lunacy (which cracked me up, by the way!), I’m guilty of that here and elsewhere, so I certainly won’t hold it against you.
I can’t explain why some people in America manage to be so friendly even if they’re in a low-paying or low-prestige job. Not all of them are, of course. Other than the marketing effect I suggested, the general cultural tendency to be friendly to strangers… Maybe the fact that Americans really do believe on some level that they’re all equal (and that they could just as easily be president of the US as a kwikkie mart cashier–Bush proves that’s true) means that in a service or unskilled position, they don’t have an inferiority complex/chip on their shoulder because they’re just clueless…
I’d buy that as a contributing factor. As Vincent says, “They don’t even KNOW they’re alienated” in the sense of the Marxist definition of alienation he cited in an earlier comment.
David–Of course, there’s always the “Protestant” work ethic to consider too. Culturally, just the fact of being employed contributes to American self-esteem.
The thing is though, she isn’t mean or horrible – she’s a very nice person and I’m still friends with her to this day!
I took a really interesting class a few years back on French immigration, and it really opened up my eyes to why a lot of things are the way they are. The professor explained as such – that Anglosaxons were an outward-looking culture, that we were taught from day one to constantly put ourselves in other people shoes, etc. How many times have you heard a French person say that? Um, never! It’s because they’re a very inward looking culture – they are taught that family and friends are everything. They form very intense friendships early on, and tend to keep those friends for life. I know MOH’s friends haven’t really changed since primary school, and it’s the same for the husbands of my other expat friends. This also explains why us expats have such a hard time making friends in France – French women don’t have that many girlfriends anyways, and they are very happy with the ones they have and aren’t interested in making new friends. Which is why our American style of friendships seem so superficial to the French. We ‘waste’ all of our niceness on complete strangers, whereas they save theirs for their family & friends.
This also plays over into the whole customer service issue – to a French cashier, you’re a complete stranger, so he/she feels no obligations towards you whatsoever. Whereas an American cashier, having been taught to be nice to everyone, will be friendly as all heck. Conversely, that same French cashier will do anything he/she can to help a friend, even if it means bending the rules, while the American one will just apologize and say “Sorry, rules are rules”.
Understanding this really helped make living here so much easier for me. Before, I could never understand why when someone dropped something in the street, no one would ever pick it up and give it back to them – but after, I realized it was because they were a stranger, so the people walking behind felt no obligation to help them out. They didn’t know that person and thus didn’t care one way or the other if they lost something. It’s just a completely different way of looking at things.
Sorry about writing a novel here, but this is a subject that fascinates me!!
Heard on France Inter this morning:
« Le marchand est obligé de plaire. Il doit flatter, et paraître aimable et gai. C’est terrible ! »
Jules Michelet (August 21, 1798 – February 9, 1874), a famous French Historian.
Hi Samantha.
I discuss these kinds of things at length with my French husband (who happens to be sknob) too, because I also find them fascinating. Fortunately, he really understands both cultures (his dad was American and he lived in NY for 8 years in his 20s) and has spared me a lot of frustration by being able to articulate the differences, their origins, their behavioral manifestations, etc.
I was aware of the other points you bring up, about rules and friendship. The thing about the rules is absolutely true and it’s one of the things I find most charming about the French (although to have rules bent for you, it depends on who you’re dealing with, what mood they’re in, whether they like your face…) Fortunately, I’ve had a few fonctionnaires overlook minor discrepancies or shortcomings in my paperwork for various things. Wouldn’t happen that way in the US.
I’ve heard the thing about friendship is true, and haven’t seen anything to contradict it. I am fortunate to have a close French girlfriend, but she’s just a different kind of person, more open to new experiences than pretty much anybody I know (check out Bonheur Occidental, link in my sidebar), so I’m not surprised.
As for your still being friends with that woman–this is not a judgment; I don’t have all the details–but if it had been me, that probably would have been a deal breaker. Kindness is a required ingredient in friends of mine and my opinion of a person who could do that would probably have been permanently altered by just that one act.
I’ve noticed the French are pretty considerate when it comes to holding doors open for each other though. Where does that fit in with the not picking up things for others, I wonder? And they’re so polite and formal (Bonjour monsieur ‘dame…). Such walking contradictions, these Frenchies! I look forward to a lifetime of studying them. It’s very stimulating.
One thing is certain. If you haven’t lived among the other group, you have absolutely no idea how different the two groups are.
I still pick things up for people if they drop them. Maybe they think I’m a retard, but I don’t care.
Don’t worry about the “novel.” You can see I talk till I’ve said what I have to say.
Thanks again for your comment!
Sknob. Translation of the quote:
“The merchant is obligated to flatter and appear friendly and happy. It’s terrible!”
So even 200 years ago some French guy thought it was awful to have to be nice to customers and act happy.
Quelle surprise. ;-)
While I’m really impressed with the quality of the social observations posted, I must point out that we’re entering an era of change.
The largest French retailer Carrefour will pay back your unwanted purchases with a smile, while more and more personnel is forced to attend very American style training classes. In these days of dwindling consumer spending, ‘being nice’ to those customers has become vital.
But deep down inside, the US and France are socially still quite different. Like you pointed out, making new friends (no matter how superficial) in a society that remains a very inward looking culture is a daunting task.
The same applies for Belgium, where people absolutely resent finding jobs if it involves moving. I also witnessed the same issues with making friends in Belgium (unless you have a strong common interest making new friends is extremely difficult) or applying for a job when having passed ‘a certain age limit’.
Most posters elaborately explained the differences between the US and France, and no matter how much company training will be imposed upon us, those cultural differences are here to stay.
When I lived in Brussels the friendliest worker/woman in the world was madam Pee-Pee. That’s right, the woman who kept the loo clean at the local watering hole my friends and I terrorized on the weekends. She graciously stroked my ego and told me my butt did NOT look big in green spandex and that my mile high hair did NOT indeed look like a rat’s nest, but a Holly’ood diva. She was kind, funny, and somehow managed to make it look like she was proud of what she did. I made a special trip to say goodbye to her on the last night I was in Belgium…and I’ll confess, I cried when she hugged me.
I don’t know what this has to do with anything, expect that in America AND in Europe people seem to have forgotten two words. Work Ethic.
Bottom line.
Thanks for the uplifting anecdote, Claudia. Thank gawd for people like Mme PiPi. There’s not enough kindness lying around, but when you come across it, it really nourishes your soul. Like PacMan gobbling cherry bunches so he can keep running around his maze (I’m dating myself, I know. The only video game I ever liked…).
Hi Pamela-
My comment really has nothing to do with the subject, but I ran across your blog when I was Googling ‘living in Paris’…
I’m hoping to come over for the month of July this summer – I’d move permanently if I could get a working permit, but that’s another story…
In any case, wondering if you might have any helpful tips? I speak French, and actually spent my Jr. year abroad in Grenoble (a lifetime ago)… A tried and true Francophile :)
I know Paris a little – have visited a few times – mostly recently last September when I stayed with a friend for a week… Ideally I’d like to live in a convenient area of the city that is safe and offers a lot of variety and activities for a 30-something single female. Any tips, suggestions, words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated! Merci! Cheers. Kim
First of all, it’s nice to meet another francophile! You might be interested in Francophilia.com, which is the only social network for francophiles. I launched it last October.
There is one Francophilia member, “RueNobel,” who has a nice apartment she rents. You can contact her directly to see if it’s available: http://www.ruenobel.com/ She also runs TheParisBlog.com, a group blog about Paris (if you are interested in a variety of day-to-day genuine “living in Paris” type stuff.)
There is another member, a francophilie blogger and virtual girlfriend of mine who will also be here for the month of July. She has just gone through lots of research into apartments for that time period, and I’m sure she’d be happy to save you some time by sharing what she learned and her recommendations. Her Francophilia member name is “LeRouge,” and here is her blog: http://labeletterouge.blogspot.com/ You can contact her through her blog or through Francophilia if you join.
As for safe areas, Paris is a very safe city with very little crime and almost no violent crime. Women walk around alone at all hours of the night! As an American, I still get the willies doing that, but it’s because of my own cultural conditioning rather than any real menace here.
Moving here permanently can be tough for someone who doesn’t come from the EU! You have to have enough money to support yourself for a year if don’t have a work permit. It’s verrrry hard to get a work permit. To hire non-French and non-EU people, companies here have to justify hiring you (you have to have a skill that can’t be found over here). Then they have to jump through major bureaucratic hoops and do piles of paperwork to get you your permit. So they usually don’t bother. The best bet for getting a job over here is working with an American company with offices over here or being a highly skilled worker (science and technology, basically).
Of course, if McCain is elected, you could always try requesting asylum.
Anyway, hope that helps!